was it really that bad???

[tigergambit]

Interesting thread.

Tod, I admire your guts for playing like this, but against 6 limpers I think you're taking a big gamble. Having said that if it works don't fix it. Wouldn't recommend you try it against the OLBG crew though.

With regards to online poker being fixed I think that the reason you see so many more big hands is that you see so many more hands to completion, purely because there are so many bad players out there who can't let hands go. It does happen live too, but as there are so fewer hands/hour and players are generally better it happens a lot less. e.g. you play 90 hands in an hour online and see maybe 60 to showdown in a tournament, 30 in same time live but only 12 to showdown.

As someone who had their flopped nut flush busted by a runner runner 3s full of 9s full house in a live tourney this week believe me - stuff happens.
_________________
In order to live, you must be willing to die - Amir Vahedi

Marching on together.........

[adlad]

turfline - What you're witnessing is context density mixed with looser players. The action happens faster online, and since players are generally looser than in real life, you see more lucky straights, flushes, trips etc.

[tigergambit]

[turfline]

OK if its the case of more hands being played in one hour online, as some of you say that produces these high in pecking order hands,that if you were to deal hands at a table and hands online you actually would more or less come out the same, if they were dealt at the same speed, i dont think so.
I done a survey with a group of poker players i now and put this question to them, they went back in thier own minds and could not see how that could be so, as they said a pack of cards are random outcome, software is a programme that does not have the same capability,the servers that manage these sites are not in the same league of generating random outcomes as the REDSTORM computerbase which is used by the scientific community which helps to predict weather and other scientific events and that can do 43 Trillion calculations per second and that system is not capable of beating a pack of cards at random deals when shuffled and dealt. SIMPLE END OF STORY??????

[jwoody]

It always shocks me to see how many online poker players think the RNG is rigged, I certainly would'nt play online if I felt the site was rigging the cards I recieved.

Nobody has produced any factual information about this topic, so far it's been opinion only that surely is'nt enough proof, one way or the other.

Here is a link to a sample report, produced by iTech, the independant company that tests Pacific Pokers RNG:

http://www.itechlabs.com.au/certificates/Cassava/RNG_report_Poker_2006Q4.pdf

For anyone that can't be bothered to read their report, it says iTech have taken a large number of dealt hands, by their own words "sufficient game records to make the actual calculation statistically meaningful" and they have found that the dealing of hands on their site is inline with the actual probability; for example, from a smaple of 100,000 hands, there should be 43,822 hands which make 1 pair, the results show that 43,891 one pair hands were made, on average, for every 100,000 hands which were dealt. They have also confirmed that the dealing of each rank and suit is random. If that's not random, then what is?

iTech are'nt the only independant online game testing company, nor are Pacific the only major online cardroom that uses iTechs services, Labrokes use Ocogra, here's a sample report plus a link to Ocogras website which explains their testing processes:

http://poker.Ladbrokes.com/layout/default/images/Ladbrokes.jpg

http://www.ecogra.org/fairness

Poker Stars uses 2 independant companies to ensure the fairness of their RNG; they have commisioned both BMM International and Cigital to test their dealing and both found it to be fair in relation to the true probabilities:

http://www.Poker Stars.com/poker/rng/

http://www.bmm.com.au/

http://www.cigital.com/

Paradise Poker Poker and Full Tilt use Price Waterhouse Coopers for their audits; I'm sure there are other companies being used to ensure the fairness of online poker games.

Do you really think all these independant companies would risk their reputation to help rig online poker?

To me, it makes better business sense to ensure as fair a game as possible than to rig it; besides, who would actually lose if the cards were rigged? Poker is'nt played against the house, it's against fellow poker players, the house get their commision no matter who wins. So even if the game was rigged to give more action flops and rivers, it would still essentially be fair because everyone would be in the same boat.

The fact that you may see more straights and flushes than in a live game can be explained logically, you see more hands per hour online and the average standard of online play is lower than offline play, so more hands are dealt and more players are willing to chase straights and flushes.

Who still does'nt believe online poker is fair? Seriously, what do you need to see before you were happy that the site you're playing on is'nt rigged? I will happily try and obtain more information, but I need to know what information would be useful.
_________________
Don't worry, we've got Neil Warnock!

[turfline]

Well lets start somewhere, like risking your reputation, has anyone heard about a company called ENRON? and as for being rigged that would not be a comfortable word that i would use, my version would be Limited software, and as for thinking logically, you are quite right that is what exactly a computer software programme does its LOGIAL and cannot think it is only as good as its programme parameters.
A pack of cards dealt and shuffled will not adhere to any logical outcome, they are completely random, computer software is not random.
Bookmakers combined profits on the machines on their premises that do roulette and other games driven by software have made more than £100m plus since being introduced into thier shops, it is designed to keep 23% of every pound put into the machine as profit.
That is why if you have enough money you can employ the best brains going, and set up organisations with credibility that can monitor companies that all rely on each other for buisness, they all drink from the same trough and are under the same umbrella.. one could not do without the other.
Its all about making money, these poker sites once set up are not in the slightest bit interested what any one person has to say or his opinion, and why is it that the USA and some European countries are not letting these sites trade, and made them illegal, and why is that ?, could it be part of some of that what is mentioned above?.
I love playing poker and have been playing long enough to now that these sites fall well short of table poker and on that there is NO ARGUMENT what so ever.
Online poker has its limits and its just a buisness and a bit of fun and some make a good living out of it but for the aficionado its just a computer game.

[jwoody]

[BoozyBeggar]

turfline said:

[tigergambit]

[turfline]

OH dear thats something that Ladbrokes certainly do not want brought up, concerning inappropiate tapping up on clients concerning their then casino operations a few years ago, or would [LIBELOUS COMMENT REMOVED], oh of course not.
Perhaps another piece of imformation, did you now that there are over seventy organisations that keep records on a data base independantly of each other on all individuals they come into contact with, personal and private and that some of the very organisations that people gamble on such sites as poker gaming fall into that category, and its not just confined to this country, as when Betfair sold part of its concerns to foreign counterparts that data and information went with it.
I ask some of you as not to be so naive when money is involved, as an assisting managing Director told me many years ago when money is involved family, friends ,workplace, buisness anything can happen.
The trouble is with the masses is,they get told something and they think Oh well that must be so, some examples like the gas and electricity prices going up and say the euro vote we were promised, and people just except it, you see poker sites are a cash cow for these organisations (Bookmakers) they work within the parameters that they helped set up.So why should no one question the practices that are in place, because they now that their software is flawed and it would open up the biggest can of worms that the industry has ever seen.

[jwoody]

[buzzer]

This is a great thread, on a very topical subject, and should be kept open for debate for weeks to come.
Woody...we are great mates, and have locked horns many many times over the years on the green felt, and i hold you in very high respect, not only for the way you play the game, but also for your knowledge of it, but i for one would like to see the information that you feel you could provide to back up your statement: